Ep #99 “How Rest is The Key to Your Success” with Daniel Sih
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About Daniel
Daniel is the co-founder of Spacemakers®, a productivity consulting group for busy leaders. His book Spacemaker - how to unplug, unwind and think clearly in the digital age; won the Australian Business Book Award in 2021 for personal development, and was a finalist for best technology book and best cover design. As a trainer, coach and keynote speaker, Daniel has worked with CEO’s, executives, and other senior professionals throughout Australia and beyond. He is the creator of best-selling productivity courses such as Email Ninja, List Assassin, Priority Samurai, and Making Space (digital wellness training) with more than 20,000 students online and offline.
Daniel has a broad professional history, includes leadership roles in physiotherapy, health management, project management and Christian ministry. Daniel lives in Tasmania, Australia with his wife, Kylie, and their three children, Naomi, Caleb and Jethro. He also keeps fourteen pure-bred chickens who eat a lot of grain and lay too few eggs.
To learn more about Daniel and his work at Spacemakers, please visit www.spacemakers.com.au
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Books
Quotes
“I was my own worst critic and I was judging myself based on everything having to be perfect and needing to know all the answers before I felt like I had skill...I felt like this dream was telling me actually, the skill is making 'purple pancakes', giving it a go, and it doesn't have to be perfect. In fact, it'll taste fine and it'll work out alright. That really shaped me. Even now as a businessman."
“If people don't address their inner life. Don't address their insecurities. If people are insecure, they strive and drive to break that insecurity through their work, then they're typically really successful for the first twenty years because of the A type personalities. But then they hit their mid thirties, forties, and actually they're a nightmare and burn out because their inner life isn't healthy.”
Takeaway Questions from the interview
How would a childlike approach lead to greater success and meaning in your life?
When in your life have you waited for the perfect scenario to move forward?
How has your inner critic kept you from freedom, enjoyment, and success?
What does a journey toward exploring and healing your insecurities look like?
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Leadership Development Program…
Transcript #99
All right, got another great episode today, here in the metaphors podcast. My guest today is Daniel C. He's the author of the book space makers, how to unplug, unwind and to think differently in a digital age. I mean, it's such a meaningful topic today, which I'm sure we'll get into. But Daniel, it was pleasure to have you all the way from Down Under. Thanks for being here.
Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show.
Absolutely. I'm sure my guests will love your accent. So yeah,
well, looks both ways. I enjoy hearing yours. So it's good. We're a long way away Alabama to Tasmania. It's a pretty big distance to bring just a little bit. And we live which is pretty good on well, you know, on Zoom, it's great. Yeah,
absolutely. Yeah, I tend to when I get around my Australian friends and kiwi friends, I'd like to turn my accent up a little bit. So they kind of get a little bit of a taste of the good old south. So
anyway, but that sounds good. That sounds good. I'm happy with that. I have this strange accent. It's I'm from South Australia. And we were an English colony. So we're free settlers. And so I don't have that kind of Ozzy twang that you're here in Brisbane or Melbourne. But you know, it probably sounds strange to you anyway, I'm sure.
I'm sure you got all the funny little sayings like good Anya and the car park and all that. So
I want to start but yes, we probably do.
Well, Daniel, I love to kind of a lot of my guests to kind of really start diving in their story is, you know, early life, what was something that really shaped you in your adolescence?
Yeah, no, thanks for that look. And I was thinking about this, because obviously, I've listened to your podcast, and I love love the trajectory of how you hear people's lives, as you might start off with a framework and then I'll share my story if that's right, because I was thinking about my story. And I love this book, David, that David Brooks wrote, which is called the second mountain and he talks about the fact that in our 20s, and 30s, we're in the first mountain and we're achieving and we're trying to work out who we are, and we're getting some successes, and it's a different mode of being and then you kind of mid 40s, early 50s, and you reach a second mountain where you let go of some of those things, and you have a more peaceful way of living. And it's almost like through loss and grief or through change, you just have a very different way of seeing the world. And and he says that in the second mountain, there are four key things or four commitments you need to end up knowing and one, I will get back to your question, I promise. But one is, one is you know, who's your spouse? Or who you're going to do life with? relationally? Who who are you going to commit to as a community? So who will be your community? The third big commitment is a vocation and that's bigger than a job or even a career because it leads into retirement even though Who are you called to serve in the world? And how do you do that? Even if it shifts jobs and and the last one is a belief or faith, your broader higher calling way of seeing the world? And, and it's those commitments to particular things and getting rid of everything else that allows you to enter that second mountain. So I suppose I've been thinking about it from the perspective of your listeners and what this podcast is about, you know, what does it mean to become a man in their 40s and then 50s and, and shape your life when you're young. But for me, I probably started with faith and belief that's, that's really what has shaped a significant aspect of who I who I am. And so that's probably my first story. I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't in a religious family. I didn't come from a religious background, my dad's Chinese and came from Shanghai. So I'm half Chinese mums, and we call them a dinky di Ozzy. It's probably not a term of yours, but I don't know. Very Ozzy kind of lady. And, yeah, but none of them had a religious background. I didn't learn about faith or any of that stuff. But I had this when I was a young kid, and I don't know how old probably about 10 years old, that's my guess, but maybe a bit older. I just I was very, very anxious actually and insecure as a kid had these nervous twitches. I didn't always feel that safe. And and, you know, I had nightmares all the time about like, atomic wars and I don't know I just anxious kid. It was funny. I don't know why I had I'd really loving parents. I mean, they they weren't great with each other and I've ended ended up getting divorced. But I certainly grew up in a happy family. But yeah, so that nervousness was there. And, and I remember being scared of the dark, all these things, but I was in bed one one day and I just saw this kind of, I don't know how to describe a spirit type thing an angel, I might say now I had no words for them. And it just entered the room and it was it was like this warm feeling. thing that I experienced. And it felt like a friend. And I had no theological understanding of what there was. In fact, I don't even remember thinking it was like, I remember thinking, wow, this is cool. But I didn't even you know, happen now and be like, Wow, that is really strange. But it happened a few times during my childhood. And I think it just opened my eyes up to the idea that there's a spiritual realm, and there's something bigger than the world I see around me. And yeah, it started me questioning. So that was probably my first experience that started to shape my adulthood. Because I suppose I'm quite a spiritual person now. Yeah, I certainly value that, you know, life.
Hmm, absolutely. So what I mean, that happens that you said at 10 years old,
yeah, young. I mean, I do it down at the time. It was it was certainly young, probably late primary school, or very early high school happened a few times.
So because it was such a profound experience. So that leads to curious searching out, like, what was that? Or who was that I was experiencing? And what was kind of the next step she took from there?
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it did. I mean, I can't think I think it has to have because of where I've ended up. But I don't know how conscious it was, again, I was just a kid. I remember, I went to a I went to a, like a private school. And in Australia, most of the private schools were started by church communities or started by denominations. And but it wasn't a particularly religious school. It's one of the types where, you know, you went to mass or chapel. And that really, it was about getting good grades and getting to university or college. But they did sing songs. They sang songs in chapel and I do have another experience where it was a bit weird. I can't believe I'll share this. But I remember singing in the shower. My mom and dad had this ensuite shower, and we never got to have a shower. We always had our own bathroom. But for some reason, I was in this kind of ensuite shower bathroom. And I remember singing the songs about I don't know, singing to Hosanna or something. And it was just this profound sense of joy singing these religious songs. And I really distinctly remember that, and I think that was another experience was like, oh, there's something in my spirit that wants to praise or I don't know, seeing to whoever it is to, you know, look, eventually when I do remember this, when I was about I think 13 or 14. And again, I was still quite insecure. I was bullied lots at school. It was a it was a tough time in life. But my mum became a follower of Jesus. So she she started reading the Bible and and she ended up getting baptized and said to us, let her kids do you want to get baptized? And my sister said no, and I didn't know I said yes. And I must have been because of those experiences. I didn't know anything about religion. And I knew very little about Jesus. But yeah, I I got baptized. In fact, one of the things someone said is our baptism is great. You get presents. And, and honestly, I didn't get a skateboard for Christmas that year when I wanted one. And I thought, oh, now's my shot. I missed out Christmas. But now if I get baptized, I get a skateboard. And so I got baptized in this little school chapel. And, and I didn't feel much I've got to say, and the presents were just terrible. Like, I got all these books of the Bible from like this guy called Daniel. Yeah, never heard of. And I would just because he's got my name doesn't mean I really want him I kind of would rather a skateboard but but actually, the gift I got was the Holy Spirit. Because like, I know that I know that I became a follower of Jesus that day, because I mean, stuff changed. I remember a few days later, I'm like, well, if I'm a Christian now, then I suppose I should do what they do. And they pray, I think so. I remember my very first prayer, I said to God, you know, please help my dog who died from cancer be in heaven. And then I picked up a Bible and I just read it like a book, which is funny when you're 14 years old, I'm I can't believe I just read it like a book. And, and yeah, and and about a year later, I said to Mum, you know, since we're baptized, do you think we should go to a church one day? So we went to a judge for the first time about a year later. So that was the start of that journey. But you know, the point is that there was something about faith and God and thinking about who I was, and, and my spiritual life, that that was genuinely important from a young age, and it's shaped everything else in terms of like, who I married, right. How I understand Korea, and the community have chosen to to make my own overtime. Wow.
Yeah, it's something so fascinating, because just the childlike approach you had that, you know, I would say my upbringing and a lot of Southerners here it is very, like Bible belts, the term we use of most of the South because it's so inundated in Christian culture that the the path to successful Christian life is like paved where you It's just like, Yeah, I'm a Christian. I guess I'll read the Bible. Yeah, I should go to church, you know, just the childlike like, let's Yeah, I don't, I don't really have a someone telling me what I should and shouldn't do to be a Christian that you just literally like, just I hear him God, you know?
Yeah. And look, it's interesting, because I've met a lot of people who have now that I've, I've, you know, I've even been a minister of a church as well as a businessman. And so I've obviously met lots of people from a Christian faith background now. And a lot of the time I hear that people are needing to go through a process of undoing some of the cultural baggage and the religious baggage of their childhood. And they talk about Sunday schools, sometimes in a negative way, or certainly, you know, Catholic or kind of Protestant education in a really negative way sometimes, and they had to undo that in order to find God. So in some ways, I'm really grateful that I did have a bit of a clean slate. And yet, you know, it's probably shaped who I was, I mean, church is funny, because I remember thinking church was great. And there were some beautiful things about it. But you know, it was like, people would have a cracker and bread, and then they close their eyes. And so I had to watch what they were doing. And then I tried to do that. And I remember going to a camp a few years later, like a religious, a Christian camp. And it was, it was incredible. It was one of the forming experiences of my life, it was probably the first time I experienced like a really loving, a really loving community, which I just had not experienced. And I really needed that as a kid to have this sense that there were other other people who are young, who accepted me and who were kind and welcoming. But I remember playing cards with them. And we played this game, I don't know if you know, black lady, you have the queen of spades, and you want to get as few points as possible. And if you get the queen of spades, you get 13 minus points, essentially, and it's bad. And I ended up landing the queen of spades. And I remember dropping the F bomb, ah, you know, and really loudly and isn't a church game, right? And the whole room went silent. It was just we used to just swear all the time at home, and my friends swore, I mean, it's just part of my culture. But I realized, right, then, you know, it wasn't in Kansas anymore. And church, people don't drop the F bomb when they get the queen of spades. And so, there was definitely some unlearning to do as part of learning to be a Christian in that kind of cultural setting, but they were loving, but it was just one of those experiences. And I've never forgotten how hard it is to be a non church person, and to try to explore faith, because there's some really weird things we're doing. And yes, it helped me be sensitive.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. That you had that, that empathy to, to those people because it really is true. Like, Wow, interesting. So I mean, one of the other like, I've just curious, because like you talked about 10 Just having just crippling anxiety, especially in your dream life, was that one of the fruits that you felt like being in relationship with Jesus that really kind of went away?
Yeah, look, not there's no miraculous suddenly fear type thing. I've, I've found that, you know, that that's probably about apprenticeship with Jesus, you know, discipleship, that, that as I just it, probably over 20 years, I would say, it probably hasn't. I mean, I'm a businessman, now I take risks all the time, I have a lot of self, you know, I have a lot of confidence. And, and that's been a journey of, of 2030 years of allowing myself to put my trust in God to put his teachings into practice. To have Yeah, there have been some supernatural things. I mean, I remember walking up a hill, I used to love walking. And what I do love walking, I love mountain, walking up mountains and hiking, which is where I live, where I live, where I live. But I remember as this service is now in my early 20s. And, and it happened for years, I just whenever I went walking, I had this just terrible hatred of myself would go through my brain. So I would, I'd be walking up a mountain, and I love getting to the top of the mountain, but whenever I was physically exerting myself, I noticed I would just have these kind of, you're an idiot, you're stupid, like this kind of loop flicking through my head. And so I actually didn't enjoy the experience a lot of the time. And I was walking with a mate, this is quite a spiritual experience, my whole life not like this, by the way. And, and he he was very, I don't know, I just very attuned and he said, you know, something's wrong with you right now. And I just said, I just have these bad thoughts going through my head. And he just said, he just thinks it might be spiritual. So he prayed. And it was one of the first times I had this kind of manifestation. Again, I saw this kind of thing, leave my body and leave the mountain. And actually, I actually think it was some type of demonic spirit, and it changed and I've never had those thoughts again. Why did that negative self talk is gone? So I'm not I'm not saying that all negative self talk is demonic, but for me, was like a game changer. And I'm like, wow, sometimes our even our own thoughts aren't just our own thoughts. But but you know, that was a, that was a spiritual experience, most of the changes in terms of not being insecure have come slowly over time, just by being willing to put into practice the teachings of Christ and and learning to be hopefully, a mature adult who can risk and make decisions for themselves.
Yeah, it's just interesting, that experience and that activity, that it does sound like steal, kill and destroy, he was trying to take that from you. And now it's similar activities. Do you find more joy, more fulfillment in
now that probably is probably the stuff I enjoy most is exercise. I mean, I became a physical, I became a physical therapist in the end, that was my first career. And yeah, I love swimming and riding and walking on mountains. I mean, that's, that's where I get my joy. So yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't put that together. But yeah, it's kind of the opposite now. Wow.
How about that? Yeah. So yeah, I'm kind of curious those that you like, you talked about self talk, you know, going after insecurities. And it sounds like, yeah, you've had a number of different careers. So I'm just curious. Yeah. In your 20s. What? Yeah, what were some of the ways that really shaped your mindset that you felt the really permission? Like you said, your first career was a physical therapist, you said, you're a pastor. And obviously, I know you're not doing that now. So I'd love to hear just your thoughts. Yeah.
Yeah. So okay, I went to university or I think you call them colleges? I'm not sure. And, yeah, okay. So became a physiotherapist. And I worked for 10 years, in different places around Australia, some in the country, some in Adelaide, work in the UK, and in Scotland, as well. So that was some great experiences. And I was I got married in between in my early 20s. In terms of insecurity, there was one big moment actually, that really shaped me, and probably has helped me to take the kind of career choices I've made. And I remember my very first job was when I was in Year 10. So I don't know I was 15 years old. And I got a job serving drinks and like cans of soft drink and pies and stuff like that at a deli, okay at a small corner shop. And I was terrified. I was always book smart, but I wasn't very life smart. And my, my dad can't change the light globe. So I didn't learn those practical skills. He's he's great, but just not a practical stuff. And, and basically, I had this really overpowering boss, I think he went to jail in the end, like he was an ex policeman. And anyway, he was just terrifying. And I was terrified. And that whole experience was bad. And I ended up getting fired pretty early, because I was so nervous that I couldn't do anything simple. So that was my first work experience. And that always impacted me in terms of the confidence I had for let's say, a real job. And so years later, I ended up being a physiotherapist. And I found myself as a new graduate in the country. And I think anyone who started a new profession, that there's one thing to do the training, and then there's another to get the first job. And there's always this big learning curve. Yeah, you're in it, whether you're an engineer, or you're a teacher, or, you know, in healthcare or, or medicine. So I remember every day just being so scared. And I would go to the chapel and just pray just to give me the confidence to get to work. You know, I remember actually, there are lots of times when I was on an orthopedic ward, and there's, you know, tubes and people with fractures, and everyone's in pain. It's very fast moving, I used to duck off to the toilet and just kind of just to breathe and to pray and to get the confidence to treat my next patient. So it was that kind of, you know, that was my level of security from a personal perspective. Yeah. And I had this dream one night, like an actor, had a dream. And so again, I was about 21 at the time working. And but in this dream, I was 21 years old, but I was back in that corner shop with that terrifying boss as a 15 year old. And it was a hot day and there was this lineup of people. And they all basically wanted my me to serve and I was the only one in the shop and everyone was getting aggro. So getting really worried. And then this lady asked me to cook pancakes and we don't cook pancakes in the shop. And I didn't even know how to do it, but I had to do it so so I just made up a recipe. I put in some eggs and some water and I mean, I had no flour at the time, even in real life. I hadn't made pancakes. And so my dream didn't know how to do it and and and they were looking Alright, and then I was feeling confident because I was just making stuff up and it was working and then and all of a sudden, I turned bright purple. Like, I've got purple tech.
And so I served these pancakes to this lady in my dream. And she looked at them and goes, they're purple. And I'm like, I know, she ate one. And she said, Oh, it's okay. And she paid me and walked off. And then I woke up. And, and I, I, again, from from a faith, I write down my dreams. And I had this really strong sense that actually that that was what God helping me know how to navigate life. And I think it was perfectionism that was really stopping me from having confidence at that stage. I was judging my own performance as a physiotherapist. As if every, every time I did something, I thought I'd get fired. And actually, I was performing just fine. I was performing at the level expected of me and even probably better than that. Yeah, but but I was my own worst critic. And I was judging myself based on everything having to be perfect. And needing to know the answers and needing to know it all in depth before I felt like I had skill. Yeah. And I really felt like this, this dream was was telling me actually, the skill is making people pancakes, giving it a go, and it doesn't have to be perfect. In fact, it'll taste fine. And it'll work out. Right. And that's really, that really shaped me, actually. And so even now, as a businessman, you know, someone says, Hey, can you, I don't know, do a 360 alive. 360 review on an executive in France, someone did that, like last year, and I've never done anything like that before. But I'm like, sure. Purple pack, I'll make it purple pancake, we'll make it up as we go. And actually, it works out fine. And as and when you when you give something to go, you end up becoming an expert in it. Or you realize actually, that's not an area I want to expand in. And and from there, you know, life happens. So, I mean, it's Yeah, I don't know if that's helpful. But that's one of the stories that's helped shaped, shaped my ability to let go of being a perfectionist and make stuff happen.
Yeah, I mean, I think like, I think that's, if I could have planned your answer that probably would have been it. To be completely honest, but I think that is such a in our young 20s and even into our 30s that for some reason, there's like, gotta be like a fake it to make it I gotta look like I got it all figured out. So eventually, I will have it all figured out. Versus I think every man or woman we admire and look up to as they their form of success was falling forward. It's like, just trial and error, give it a shot, see what happens, pick yourself up, figure out what you did wrong and keep going. Yeah, and then on balance, yeah, I'm sorry, no, but I was just saying perfection just really does just to hold us back that that mindset, definitely, and
and it all plays out, though. So if you address your inner life, and, you know, using my language that you allow God to change your story about who you are, and about what you know, let's say failure, or success means well, then then your behaviors will follow that and so therefore, I wasn't, I wasn't having to hide in the toilet, every time I had to treat a patient because I realized, it's just a purple pancake, it doesn't matter if it actually doesn't work. And then because I did that, I gain more confidence. And therefore, I had the ability to make bigger risks and to take to put myself out there with more self assurance and more self confidence. And then because of that, you get some successes under your belt, therefore your self esteem grows, therefore you change your story. And therefore you take the next risk. So definitely. Whereas the alternative is just to fake it until you make it to, to continue just pretending your whole life. Not addressed in a life, but just run, run, to stand still. So to make yourself so busy that you don't have to address what's happening in your heart and your soul. Yeah, and then just keep going up the corporate ladder, but then you hit your 40s. And actually, you don't know who you are, and who are on the inside is just that insecure kid. That was insecure in the first place. Yeah. And that hasn't changed. So I truly am thankful that I've been taken on a journey where I've, I've been learning to learn to live from the inside out. So the successes I have on the outside. Yeah, I think a representative of what's happened on the inside. I don't feel like there's this dissonance between what people see of me outside and what they see on the inside. I'm happy to cry. I'm happy to talk about my stuff ups and my failures on the outside. But I'm also secure enough on the inside to know that I'm loved. I'm accepted. I'm forgiven. Yeah, complete in Christ. And that that's a really important thing that your inner life shapes your success, not the other way around because it just doesn't work to be a pancake people wide and thin or too late. from the outside in, it's just not the way you want to live.
Yeah. Yeah, that my actions dictate my identity. That that's just a recipe for destruction. Yes, it is interesting. I saw a stat recently, like 80% of like CEOs have impostor syndrome.
Yeah. Well, what's fascinating, I mean, I heard, I heard a podcast on narcissism. And you know, just how many how many CEOs are actually clinically narcissistic. This is, this is fascinating. I don't know if it was a study or reading a book by Jamin. Fraser, and he said that he said that when people if people don't address it in a life don't address their insecurities. So if people are insecure, and that they're strive, and they drive to break that insecurity through their work, well, then that they're typically really successful for the first 20 years. Because there's a type personalities, they never start, they'll they'll work until they burn out, you know what I mean? And so they often actually achieve a lot, but then they hit their kind of mid 30s 40s. And actually, they're a nightmare, because they're not the type of boss you want to work for, because they're insecure. Yeah, you know, they don't back you. You don't trust them. They don't know you, just because their inner life isn't healthy, will it? It plays out in everything. Whereas He said, People who aren't insecure, they don't do so well in their 20s and 30s. Career wise, because they just, they're not as driven. But they're much more successful over time in their 40s 50s and 60s. So again, I think that just backs up exactly what we've been talking about, there's a way to become successful, that is really successful. And there's a way to get success that is actually really unsuccessful, that will break down your heart and your marriages, and your teams.
Daniel is so good. That is really good. I mean, I think that's my saving grace, probably because I came out of University College, just not really having a lot of self confidence, not really knowing who I was. And instead of pouring that into being a career person, and God slamming doors to career, it led to me going okay, well, I gotta start here. I gotta start. What do you teach me in here? And then go, like you said, the three things of really community? And really, what's the vocation that really is going to feed this and make me a better man, not the other way around?
Yeah. And marriage as well. You know, who you're going to do life with? That's a bit of the inner life, you know, changes? Yeah,
yeah. Such a Oh, man. I feel like I'm probably I had to put that one on replay. That's really good.
Because I think somebody trusted this better movies to watch again, listen to this podcast.
That is true. But But yeah, just the whole idea that 20s and 30s, were meant to be more long lasting change versus like, immediate, like I got, I'm making a million dollars before I'm 30 kind of thing. And so that's just, that's a powerful mindset to kind of shift a lot of my guys. So
yeah, I'm a I'm a, you know, I work as a productivity Coach and Trainer, that that's what I do, you know, in terms of speaking about digital technology, and making space and all that stuff. But when I coach, I often coach, let's say leaders, businessmen, who are again in they're often in their 40s, as well end up coaching them. They've, they've gained enough success, where they're making money, they're doing well in their career. But they're often so smashed with work, that they're actually not enjoying life. I mean, that said, Yeah, exhausted. And as much as they enjoy being an entrepreneur, they kind of there's this love hate relationship with how much work they have and how much time they're online. And the first question I'll often ask is, well, let's not plan how you can go forward with your business and let's not, let's not start with your personal productivity skills, which is why they usually get me to coach them. Let's map out what's your ideal lifestyle? You know, what, what's the things that really matter to you? And it always comes back to the same stuff. Well, I want more time with my kids. I want to have more time for myself, you know, and and there's this kind of undergirding, I do want to know who I am and that sense of spirituality. I want more time with friends. So we know the things that are really important to us, we just need to so I say you don't want to you want to design a business with space in it from the start. You don't want to end up smashing yourself and then having a business you kind of hate having a triple bypass with two divorces and your kids don't know you like so you want to start with the end in mind, even if it's a slower process. Yeah. And that usually requires making the space to think deeply and address the inner life as you build a successful career. Yeah.
Not to jump ahead but yeah, I mean, what's How do you encourage men to go think deeply about themselves that inner light and go deeper in the inner life? Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, so firstly, Oh, that's a good question. That's a lot in that.
I mean, maybe what's step one? Because I think God no a lot of men where they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Well, step one, this is a new step. And it wasn't step one before, I think step one has changed. And this is why I wrote, This is why I wrote a book about making space and technology. Step one is turn off your phone. Yeah, and actually, yourself some digital free space, I think they'll there's this fascinating study from the University of Virginia where a guy called Timothy Wilson got American subjects into a room, and, and said, be in a room by yourself for six to 15 minutes without a phone or any device. And just think of your own thoughts. And, and like, I think the majority of people didn't enjoy being by themselves, just to sit in silence for six to 15 minutes, even if it was in their own lounge room. So it was a comfortable environment. And then he he thought, well, would people prefer to think their own thoughts or to have something actually physically bad happens. So he shocked them with electricity that was so painful that they said they would pay $5 to not have that electric shock again. And then he put those guys that like, he put another cohort in the room who had had that shock before, and said, sit and think your own thoughts. But I don't recommend this. But there is this electric issue in the corner, if you want to zap yourself feel free. And like 67% of men chose to shock themselves with painful shots rather than spend 15 minutes thinking about their thoughts in silence, and 25% of women, but 67% of men. And so there's, there's something about the way we've developed masculinity in the West, where we go from one thing to the next. And we become kind of hyper addicted to distraction and to movement. And we've never actually learned to sit and enjoy our own thoughts. And if you can't sit in silence and reflect on your day, and the data in your life, the emotions that you're feeling, and, and even the meaning strategically to the things that you've talked about in the day, well, then you're not going to be a thought leader, you're not going to be a healthy human. And you're not going to be a person of faith in a really deep sense. So, so there is a sense, we need to learn to unplug from technology and to create these gaps where we can at least have space. Yeah, and that's, that's the first step. Like, even before you start to work out who you are. And to learn how to reflect, you actually need to create the silence. And the only way to do that nowadays is to physically remove yourself from technologies for long enough, and I say not for five to 15 minutes, you know, like remove yourself an hour in a day, and then five days. But start with some little pauses where at least you can write in your journal and think write down what what's on your mind. Or at least just write down what the day has been. You don't have to talk about your feelings. Yeah, but But then if you start to notice particular events, or particular conversations that either upset you or make you feel happy, well then maybe try to examine, what are the feelings behind those events? And, and what might they mean for me at a deeper level, so just starting to learn to reflect on the meaning of your day? What happened, why it happened, what God might be saying in that. And then I would say the next step is to start talking about that stuff with someone you trust, and processing it with them because you can't process your whole life by yourself. And then from a faith perspective, discern well what God is saying to me in that and what do I need to do with it? In practice to live differently?
Wow, that's really good. Yeah, cuz I mean, I want to one thing is to unplug, right? And I think, Oh, I'm gonna be alone. My thoughts down. I don't want that. Right. Most men, but I think the, you know, the most successful man on the planet, Jesus who had a ministry that blew up and three years he took time away. He's, you know, there's the going up on the mountain and coming down and how a midst of the great success of his ministry He still took time away. And interesting that that, that putting that into practice and being intentional, but then also how did you go about emits that time? How did you use that time? So
that's really good. No, definitely. And not again, this is exactly the panacea. You're Precisely right. He starts with rest and then he goes and does his ministry starts with this abiding and connecting with the Father and listening to the spirit and then acting on what he's hearing as opposed to just run around. And just hope stuff works out. Okay, you know, and if you if you're someone who has no space in your life, you actually are quite can fronted by this idea of living from the inside out rather than the outside in, it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to be, you know, Jesus, Jesus, right. I mean, I have a few simple practices for people to start in the book, like one is to start and end the day, with like, 10 to 15 minutes at the start and the end of the day, at the very least without technology. So don't plug your phone in near your bed, don't have it in your bedroom. And finish the day, by the reading a book or reflecting on your day just thinking about it, or journaling or writing a story from your day. That's a fantastic way of learning to self reflect. Or you might even just have a conversation with like your spouse in bed next year, who you used to talk to, and I don't even Pillow Talk, maybe they made love sort of sometimes, but now you're both playing Candy Crush, you're looking at Instagram and making love to your phone instead. It's it's, you know, it's just yeah, that space. And then in the morning, wake up and just pray or reflect back just thankfulness. What are you thankful for from this day? Breathe. Yeah, well think about the day. I mean, I think about my I pray through my day, every morning before I go to bed. So I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna have a conversation with Cartwright. Let me think about that. What are the things that I might want to say, or at least, you know, be prepared in my mind for this conversation, and then the next conversation and etc, etc, that all happens before I get out of bed because I'm a thought leader. And, and I'm an apprentice of Jesus. I want to think before I dive into, you know, opening up Gmail, and starting out with what's happening in my inbox. And so that that simple practice is quite transformative, if you're ready and willing to start to practice making space. And then you can build on that, you know, then you have a digital free meal. Then you have times of silence and solitude, or maybe have times where you have strategic thinking without a phone, to reflect on your work, reflect on your life. And all of that leads you to become someone who knows themselves, who has the ability to commit and make the hard choices to say no to everything else, except for a spouse, a particular community, a particular vocation, and a particular faith or belief. But that requires thought,
yeah, yes. I mean, that it's so amazing. Just the ID that requires thought intentionality. For somehow we missed that, like you. You may. I mean, he made a joke about it. But it's like, yeah, we're just running. And we're figuring out as we go, like, we're life living out some chaos. And but yeah, I just do want to do a plug. I mean, you can go to space makers.com That au to find out more about Daniel's book Spacemaker. But Danny, let's, let's go back to your story a little bit more curious how I couldn't. I couldn't I couldn't stop you because it was so good. But I will say, so. You're a physical therapist, what got you into the ministry?
Ah, so the physical therapist, and then and I'd always done and now volunteered for the church in quite significant ways. Yeah, we had a church leader leave. And I just felt very called to help our community transition through that stage. And we're a bit of a different church, we actually didn't have a church service. We met in a pub, we met in a jazz venue, which we ran. And we created a lot of rhythms where we would meet in houses. And so again, we had the functions of a church community, but not in a traditional kind of service style. And anyway, long story short, I, I felt called to later and I was asked to lead it. So I said, Yes, and I was a part time job. So I was doing that part time. I was I went part time with my physiotherapy management, I was managing a service at that stage, I wasn't working in a clinical role. Yeah. And then at the same time, this is kind of where the where the book came out of the start of this. I also started this hobby business by accident, where I was so frustrated at seeing the inefficiencies of people in management and leadership around me and realized that actually, I'd spent four years training to be a physiotherapist and all this other study and anatomy and physiology. But then I was actually spending a third of my time on email during meetings and responding to these kinds of emails. And no one had taught me how to do the basics of my job now that I was a manager, which was really different than treating patients. And through reading the research and getting interested in productivity, I found some ways to just become much more efficient at it. Inbox processing. So we we we went to a group, this training group in government and we said look, we have no training experience. And this is a colleague of mine and myself. But we have this course called Email ninja, which we would like to start. And literally, we were having whiskey one night instead, let's call it email ninja. And, and anyway, that that course became a course, we ran it for eight people. And then we ran it for 15. And then 20, we've we've now trained 20,000 people globally in how to become an email ninja. And, and that became a business which then expanded to list assassin, which is like getting things done, condensed, and then priority samurai so we stayed with the ninja themes, how to how to make priorities. And I ended up with a productivity business. So I had a productivity business, which was kind of happening. I had my church that I was leading, I had my physiotherapy and it was like this nightmare situation. Yeah, a little kid. And I was near burnout. And that didn't answer your question, you
know, but that's good. I mean, I'm just,
that's that was where I got to, in my this is my early 30s. In my early 30s, I was now in this situation where I had way too much on. And I had to start that journey of making commitments to what I would say no to so I could focus on other stuff.
Yeah. And so is that so that's kind of us curious. What can't what was chicken in the egg? Was it the book or the business? Can't win came first.
So no, the book of so the book was published last year. So that's definitely late in late in the piece. Yeah. But the so the business? Yeah. So so what I ended up finding it so hard to make that decision, that I ended up becoming sick. I, I like physiotherapy was great to me, it paid really well. It was my profession. And I didn't know anything else. And it's very scary to jump from a paid secure profession, to a made up business. I mean, I literally was Spacemaker. With Spacemaker. As a business, I remember launching it. And Tim and I thought, how do we launch it? And we said, well, we'll create a LinkedIn page. So we create a page in like, one minute. And then it says, What's your profession? And I had to bring up my business partner and say, What are we and we're like, I don't know, productivity consultant. Okay, so we type that in. So we're just making it up, you know what I mean? Right? So it's very scary to get rid of a real profession to become a made up professional, right, with no income. And at the same time, I was still a pastor without full qualifications. And, but in the end, I ended up with breathing issues. I was breathless, just at the dinner table, and then breathless reading books, the kids, I started sleeping badly. And, and the doctor did the tests. And basically, it's like, now this is anxiety. This isn't. And this is exhaustion, you have three careers, bad move, you know, don't don't be tried vocational. So I ended up through a number of different God moments, I resigned from physiotherapy, I made a call to do part time ministry and to start an entrepreneurial thing on the side. And I did that for probably about five years in that true format. And then I did some full time ministry, and now I'm full time business. So it's taken a bit of a there's been twists and turns, but the heartbeat of it all has been to love God and to love people. And I think, you know, going back to my history, I've always felt most natural, bridging the marketplace and the church. When I was a full time minister. I felt like I wasn't religious enough to be a minister. And as a full time businessman, I'm too religious to be a businessman. I just think that's the way I'm made. Yeah. So I just feel like, I need to do both. Yeah. My personal mission calling is to be a bridge between Church and the world. And that's, that's, that's really part of who I am.
Yeah. And I had that question. Because you mentioned the earlier just having that empathy and compassion for the unchurched and how to use the right language around them. And so I'm just for the month of our fellow believers out there, what is one way we can interact with our secular friends at work, friends, co workers? How do we bridge that gap?
Yeah, well, look, I'd say you've got to start thinking, and this is probably very true where you are, but it's, I mean, it's just a given where I live because I don't live in a religious country anymore. I live in a very anti religious country. And, and so you have to think like a missionary. I mean, if you were to go to India, you would need to spend a lot of time listening, you know, learn the language, work out the customs, find out what people value, what their stories are, work out where the story of the gospel connects with people's experience of life in a positive way, you know, in my car, Should we really believe in justice, in individualism? In you know, like those kinds of things, caring for the poor, caring for the environment, I mean, all of those are Christian ethics, or they should be. So there's an alignment with the gospel. But then there's where the areas where it doesn't align. And sexuality and technology are two big areas where what the Gospel says it's totally different than culture. And, and so yeah, and then learn to speak the right language be bilingual? I mean, that's, I don't know, there's a simple explanation. But yeah, if you if you want to be able to, I mean, my book isn't a religious book at all. It's it won the Australian Business Book Award for best personal development books. So that's not a religious award. This is a business book for the business space. But when you read it, you'll see that navigation of, of speaking wisdom that I've learned from my faith into what it means to make space in the business world.
Yeah. So what yeah, if you would give just your elevator pitch for space makers? What? Yeah, I don't know, what excites you about
your job. I love I love making space in people's lives, I think one of the biggest things that we struggle with, is just busyness and franticness. And running to standstill and, and going from one thing to the next. And always being online and feeling uncomfortable about the fact that, you know, we want to spend time with our kids, but we're scrolling social media, or we want to be able to address our inner life, but we're just checking our inbox and we're drowning in emails. So I really have a compassion for people who would like me, busy leaders, managers, professionals, who are just smashed by work smashed by life, and they just longing for space. It's not, it's not money, we need a lot of the time and it's not information, it's actually space. And, you know, from I wouldn't I didn't, didn't write this in the book. But since we've talked a lot about faith type stuff, I mean, in the kingdom of God, there won't be email notifications, and there aren't going to be, there's not going to be social media, kind of like buttons in the kingdom of God, you know, like, we're not going to run to standstill, there's going to be space to think and rest and to work hard, but to do it from a place of peace. And so, yeah, my heart is to help people start that now by shifting their mindset around their relationship with technology and work, shifting principles, so that they align with reality, things that actually work in all cultures and all times. And then most importantly, to some really practical ways to stop unplugging and unwinding and thinking clearly in the digital age, which is what the book is about. Yeah.
And it's in its it sounds like it's a book, it's to how to use it more effectively, more efficiently, for your the betterment of your life and who you are. I mean, you're not saying like, yeah, you're not asking people to become Amish, right?
Oh, no, no, my assumption is that you're on my assumption is that you're an average American on technology, 12 hours a day, cumulatively, I'm on technology, eight to 12 hours a day, okay? I mean, we're talking about it, right? We're talking on technology right now. And I'm, and I love that I can be in this little place called Tasmania, and run this business and coach leaders around the world and train people in different countries. I mean, I love technology. So it's, it's definitely not an anti technology book. It's an anti digital overuse book. And it's trying to help us recognize that actually, we're less productive, we're less happy, and we're less whole, because we're overusing our digital technologies. And we need a new set of productivity skills, which are about unplugging and doing less in order to be more productive. The assumption is that we're online and that we're like, Elon Musk says we're cyborgs constantly linked to our phone. It's not all bad. But, but it is bad if you don't have the opposite set of skills, which I call the space making skills.
Right? Yeah, it's I mean, it sounds like it's a lot like the word stewardship comes to mind. How to steward it? Well, yeah.
You only get one life and you are time like you don't own time, you don't manage time, like you manage money, you get 4000 weeks as all of the Berkman says. And that's it. And so every decision you make with regards to your time is a decision you're making with regards to your life. And so is that hour on Instagram every day or that two hours watching Netflix is that is your life. You're using it right now? And is that how you want your life to play out? And is that leading to you becoming the person that you want to become? And that you feel called to become? So yeah, it's about helping us be intentional by making the spaces to live the life were called to live.
Yeah. And to answer those questions, you have to reflect you have to take time away. To be intentional, because I think yeah, that's just interesting. Well, Daniel, thank you so much. for coming on here, where's the best place for people to find you? And speaking of technology?
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so grab your phone, or your iPad, or on your laptop and your MacBook Pro. And look at space makers.com.au The AU is for Australia. And I think I'm also you can also look at Daniel c.com will get you there as well as a redirect. But look, I have I have a blog, I have free resources to help you plan a digital Sabbath for example. You can get free chapters from my book or obviously buy the book on Amazon or listen by Audible. And also run training. I've got a trainer in Canada so we can train across the states in your timezone. I'm part of that training as well. In three or four hours with online training, I can help your team get their inbox to zero each day. I can help them organize the stuff in their life in terms of productivity, and I can also help them to improve their digital health and wellness by unplugging as a habit, which is training based on this book called Making space. So I'd love to love to work with your your teams. If you're interested in a conversation. Just zoom me and we'll have a chat.
Awesome. Well Daniel, thank you for coming on. This was a blast. A lot of great stuff. I wish I had another three hours with you. So maybe you can help me organize my life
and make space for it sometime. That sounds good Cartwright. Thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it. Hopefully I make it Alabama one day.
Absolutely. We'd love to have y
